Promotion. How would you feel about it?

[Keithsson]

*NB* This isn't a quick flick through topic, it doesn't need a quick reply. Its more of a 'sitting in a wing-back chair wearing a smoking jacket and thoughtfully stroking your chin' kinda thing. So maybe save some time for it, give it a 'couple of coats of looking at'... then consider it over a coffee or two.     


A seed was planted in my head walking home on Tuesday night... losing in that spirited and entertaining manner felt much more 'enjoyable' than beating a dreadful Havant side in a very dull encounter the week before. 

That seed then grew into some questions... what do I actually want from my Rebels experience at the moment? And, is winning actually the 'be all and end all' of things currently?

Those questions are framed by the huge 'Sword of Damocles' hanging over us, the biggest of all issues facing us. Because of course if we were to win every game, however entertaining or otherwise it might be, that would mean we'd be promoted to the National League. Is the team ready for that?, is the club ready for that?, would an enjoyable, entertaining 'falling short' be a better outcome this season? 

I've been chewing that over internally. Now I must confess I pay the league above very little day to day attention, its where we aspire to going next but until we get there I don't really care about what's going on up there. But with these questions being chewed over I thought I'd take a look at the NL table... just to see how Ebbsfleet and Oxford City have fared...

Bloody hell!! Ebbsfleet were not just streets ahead of everyone else last season, they were entire housing estates ahead, and Oxford were different gravy against us and St Albans in the play-offs. But just look how they've done...

National League Table - Link

Both in the relegation places and between them...
- Only 35 points from a possible 114.
- Only nine wins from 38 games played.
- Only one away win from 19 away games played.
- indeed just 10 points from a possible 57 on the road.
- Both have a -11 goal difference.

Oxford are more akin to us in terms of size and likely resources but given the vast resources 'Fleet threw at promotion that's done them no better either.

Coming back to the questions I'd been mulling over since Tuesday therefore those stats just show the sheer size of the task ahead even if we were to achieve promotion. Its made my mind up on quite how desirable promotion is for us right now at our stage of development but I figured it was a decent talking point to put out to the collective... other views are bound to exist...

For example (firmly playing devils advocate to my own feelings)... so what? At no time will a promotion to the league above be easy and surely its better to try, even if we come straight back down, maybe yo-yo for a while until we can establish a firm foothold. Away trips to many former league clubs would be great days out. Ideally we'd want to be be full-time already and have the ground up to the required standard but we don't live in an ideal world. We know next season is a possibility for full-time anyway... a year ahead of current schedule but 'noises' have been made about B teams, training squads etc recently. And we know the ground won't be done until we're promoted anyway because of the grant situation. So why not go up, sink or swim, get the ground done and regroup. What's not to like?

I wrestled with quite how to frame the question. 'Do you want promotion'? was too simple as most self respecting fans, quite rightly, couldn't bring themselves to want to actively turn a promotion down. So I settled on 'how would you feel about promotion'.

Now of course being a much more woolly open question, we can all put our own individual context into it. If the football is your main focus then how does losing so very often make you feel?, if the club infrastructure is your main focus then how does the prospect of stretched finances and a probable season of building work appeal?, if you're a regular away game traveller how does the prospect of only extremely rarely seeing us win feel?, but lots of new grounds, better grounds?. All sorts of parameters come into play so it'd be very interesting to take the pulse of the forum.

As a given this is very much a hypothetical consideration. We're not playing like promotion candidates right now, we're too hot and cold. But saying that the league is so open this year we maybe wouldn't have to do as much as we did last season to go up.

So which side of the coin represents your feelings?  

I throw it over to you. Have a think about it, don't just vote off the cuff because if there's anything that stands before us that requires careful consideration its how and when we tackle the huge next step.

(Poll locks in a month for posterity).  




General admin note - By posting all that you'll have observed I'm not travelling to Frome today and have far too much time on my hands! Well that's because this is my last free time for over a week due daughter #2's wedding next weekend. To quote The Fresh Prince, "my life 'gets flipped turned upside down" this week and as its p155ing it down with rain I'm clearing the decks of my Rebel Rebels commitments. Consequently you'll observe, with apologies for their brevity, three 'bare bones' match threads will follow. Please flesh them out as you see fit but in terms of me firing up the PC to write for the message board... that's me done!               

[findonrebel]

My honest feeling is, looking at the NL and the current table and the position of Ebbsfleet who let's be honest absolutely murdered us twice last season, and the money they have pumped in to be in the relegation zone, I just feel currently it's way way to big an ask for us as we stand!

I know we play attractive football and we have the power to attract good players, but I think we need 3/5 seasons at this level before we are able to potentially be sustainable in NL! Also NL means I couldn't stand at the pitch side and have my pint anymore and that would be a big income loss to the club! How many people come because it's a relaxed, friendly, social environment where you can stand pitch side and have a pint with friends?

[broadwaterred82]

I feel it's too soon. I haven't been generally convinced by the squad we have had this year. We looked better last season tbh.

[findonrebel]

Nov 18, 2023 14:20:55 GMT broadwaterred82 said:

I feel it's too soon. I haven't been generally convinced by the squad we have had this year. We looked better last season tbh.

I do agree with this, I had the conversation with friends saying would this seasons squad beat last seasons and we all said no, however I would argue that this season is possibly a more competitive league?

[broadwaterred82]

I do believe it is far more competitive with the likes of Torquey , Yeovil and Maidstone coming down. We have been our own worst enemies at times with too many poor performances and errors . There is still a lack of defensive cover and the sqaud is far to unbalanced in my view with to many players in attacking areas. I will be more than happy to have a few more seasons in NLS to get established and the squad and the ground sorted.

[Kenty in Weardale]

We're nowhere near ready on or off the pitch (and that's not a criticism, just an observation) and to go up and get wallopped every week would be neither fun nor enhancing for the club

[leatherboots]

A few observations...

We are not ready for promotion with the present squad.

We need a backup goalkeeper to cover injuries loss of form etc.

We need a big centre back to cover corners etc, who can direct the defence more than Joel does at the moment.

Hinsh's post match interviews all sound very similar, our defence hasn't improved much with the arrival of Gary Elphick.

Why let Meeks go out on loan when his replacements are not as good?

[Phil]

So when it comes to talk of the squad not being ready.

What you have to look at is where the club is situated if we were to go up regardless of talent half the players would not play for us.

Why you ask? The travel distances and commitments to play across the full county.

No fault of the players they all have jobs and life’s outside of football and average Saturday commutes of 5 hours each way are enough to put many off.

Most part time teams like ourselves that go up often loose half the team due to this.

So even if we had the best squad In the league and went up to me it means nothing whilst we are still part time

[jjpworthing]

I'd always be an advocate of progressing up the pyramid at heart. However, we look weak at the back and the squad, although technically gifted, is quite lightweight, as seen at alfreton. It wouldn't be great for the club to go up and be thrashed every week, nevermind the financial burden we'd have to incur with the extra travel costs whilst transitioning both the squad and the facilities to a full time footing.

So although I'd have severe reservations about the viability of worthing going up this year, at heart I'd still be overjoyed if we pulled it off!

[broadwaterred82]

Nov 19, 2023 0:46:53 GMT jjpworthing said:

I'd always be an advocate of progressing up the pyramid at heart. However, we look weak at the back and the squad, although technically gifted, is quite lightweight, as seen at alfreton. It wouldn't be great for the club to go up and be thrashed every week, nevermind the financial burden we'd have to incur with the extra travel costs whilst transitioning both the squad and the facilities to a full time footing.

So although I'd have severe reservations about the viability of worthing going up this year, at heart I'd still be overjoyed if we pulled it off!

Excatly!!

[dutchboy74]

Not going to lie yes I want us to go to next level. Are we ready for it in general? No I don’t think so. There is still a lot to be done. Ie full time football, maybe get it in place next season regardless of if stay in NLS. Question I raised on the podcast with Adam. Would be benefit from a “B” team? Personally I think we would but to start that up is not easy. And do have the infrastructure at the ground for going up? Looking at how we currently segregate I would say no. If people are really determined to get the fencing down they will. All in all there is still a lot to be done on and off the pitch.
But if somehow we went up this year I think we should try to enjoy it. But also learn from it he experience and build upon it.
But I rather would go up well prepared and in a sustainable way. We all know what happens if money runs out.

[Keithsson]

Nov 19, 2023 8:39:48 GMT dutchboy74 said:

Not going to lie yes I want us to go to next level. Are we ready for it in general? No I don’t think so. There is still a lot to be done. Ie full time football, maybe get it in place next season regardless of if stay in NLS. Question I raised on the podcast with Adam. Would be benefit from a “B” team? Personally I think we would but to start that up is not easy. And do have the infrastructure at the ground for going up? Looking at how we currently segregate I would say no. If people are really determined to get the fencing down they will. All in all there is still a lot to be done on and off the pitch.
But if somehow we went up this year I think we should try to enjoy it. But also learn from it he experience and build upon it.
But I rather would go up well prepared and in a sustainable way. We all know what happens if money runs out.

That's my bottom line too, sustainability. It'd take just a tiny overreach at this level, within our model, to start the debt ball rolling.

It hasn't surprised me too much that the polling is fairly split so far. When you get any difficult issue to resolve, it's always a polarising matter... just look at Brexit 😱 It is interesting though to hear what people are highlighting as their parameters for voting, lots about the team, not so much about the money and practicalities of going up.

In many ways the team on the pitch is the least important factor. Apart from the obvious of needing to be good enough to go up in the first place, to be cold heartedly brutal about it each and every one of the players is replaceable. That's just a talent identification and recruitment issue.

Fundamentally though the money needs to be managed waaay more diligently than the players do. That's what puckers my hoop about it. Again being totally practical and heartless, all the players and staff will leave one day, we'll still be here. And it's far easier to get rid of players than it is to get rid of debts.

And that's why, as you mentioned it, I fully support Barry's explanation of doing only the absolute bare minimum on ground improvements until we go up.

Sure we could build that long 'Carshalton style' stand, with extra seating and permanent segregation gates before we go up. But if putting the cart before the horse means it only ever hosts a post administration 'pheonix' club playing through the county leagues after Worthing FC as we know it goes bust, or worse still it gets torn down for housing development, what's the point?

Melodramatic? There's plenty of fans of dozens and dozens of former clubs up and down the country who'll tell you it can and does happen. Far better to save your pennies and spent 20% of the build cost (with 80% grant funding paying the rest) than spend 100% of the build cost before you need it. Save every penny you can for team strengthening and providing a product on the pitch that will draw the crowds in to try and fill that increased capacity.

I'm really enjoying the discussion that's coming here, it's clear we've all got our eyes and minds open to the huge issues involved. But tying it back to the spark that ignited the discussion, I feel what's most important in the interim period, before any serious managed push for promotion, is that we are simply entertained. As the night and day difference in entertainment between the Havant and Dartford games showed, that doesn't have to necessarily be winning football every game.

The fanbase needs to be patient and understanding for a few seasons. On the whole I think we are, certainly on here, but it won't take a huge number of the 'fairweathers' to drift away after the upward momentum of the last five or six years for a critical tipping point in reduced income to slow things up. Keeping the crowd entertained and invested while we as a club carefully and prudently manages its ascent is the key challenge for the next year or three.

[dutchboy74]

One thing I would like to see is a roof over the standing area above behind the goal. I think it will benefit the atmosphere but also people will come to the game knowing they can stand somewhere dry. More people more money etc. Bit of topic I know,sorry

[Keithsson]

Nov 19, 2023 10:30:01 GMT dutchboy74 said:

One thing I would like to see is a roof over the standing area above behind the goal. I think it will benefit the atmosphere but also people will come to the game knowing they can stand somewhere dry. More people more money etc. Bit of topic I know,sorry

It's not off-topic at all. The pounds, shillings and pence Worthing FC invests on infrastructure projects is directly relevant to our finances and sustainability... the key to the successful taking of the next step. Ground, team, funding, stewarding, beer restrictions, travel costs, the move to a full time squad... the topic on this thread covers every topic really 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

Yeah, it's all gone a bit quiet on that. I suspect its buried in the planning department at Worthing Town Hall. Last I heard (Barry's podcast interview at the start of the season maybe?) was the application had just gone in, funded as part of the Focus Group guy's 'buy in'.

And (as I recall) that all tied in with the 'managed growth' model too. Unless very much mistaken wasn't it suggested that the cover applied for was able to accommodate a future raked/stepped terrace down that end too?

Because as much as a crowd needs to be dry, it needs to be able to see the pitch. Even once covered i'd imagine if it wasn't raining the Awayboys would still choose 'the hill'. One level means one, low level unobstructed view. I saw the images from Hop Oast on Tuesday, folk standing 5-10 rows deep on a single level... you'd see nothing after 2 rows back 🤦🏻‍♂️

[tonyh]

Excellent subject this. I personally have mixed feelings about the subject. My heart says yes whereas my head says yes but not just yet. The example of Ebbsfleet has all ready been mentioned, if they are struggling in the NL with their financial resources then how could we possibly not. One of my biggest fears about NOT going up is that we would inevitably at some stage lose the services of Adam Hinshelwood as his personal ambitions outstrip those of the club. Replacing players will be far easier than replacing a Manager of Adam's calibre with his philosophy of how the game should be played.
So I guess that if we are presented with the opportunity of promotion then we must grasp it with both hands and deal with all of the other very important aspects as best as we can.